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Revolutionizing New Hampshire High Schools
By Laura Knoy on Monday, October 12, 2009.
This year a new system for tracking student progress, called “competency based assessment” is supposed to be set up. Assessment, organizers say, is about demonstrating mastery of the material instead of grades or attendance. But as progress moves forward on the system, many educators have more questions that need to be answered – and doubts to be addressed – before they jump on board. We'll look at the system and how it might change our schools.
Guests
- Fred Bramante, Past chair and current member of the New Hampshire Board of Education
- Mark Joyce, Executive Director of the New Hampshire School Administrators Association
We'll also hear from
- Tom Bennan, superintendent of the Manchester School District
- Tim Mayes, superintendent of the Bedford School District
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http://lnh.litchfieldnhboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=695
Litchfield residents are discussing this topic at the web site
Competency Based Ed is a new name for Outcome Based Ed. Google Peg Luksik/ you tube/ and she will explain what OBE is all about. It's snake oil folks
Obviously this is a subject that needs more than an hour discussion on public radio. I would be happy to speak to virtually ANY group on this subject. Feel free to contact me at fredbramante@daddys.com
I am one who has 'been there done that' and I also speak, free, all over the country about this. I can tell you this idea you have is a fad and a dud and doesn't work and is why are schools are failing.
All this child-centered nonsense is being fed to us by the utopians at the UN. Our schools systems produced the engineers and scientists that created the greatest industrialized country in the world and now you want to ruin it?
Please...don't waste our time and money. I've seen it all. You see unlike you I was NOT laid off in the 70s and worked for 35 years so I've seen it all and now I'm telling all.
I worked for a long time with a arts advocacy organization in Bow, New Hampshire and one of the questions we addressed was where do the arts fit among the core competencies discussed in today's exchange. We heard alot of reading, writing, and arithmatic, but not the arts. Are the arts considered to be among the core compenetencies? What kind of assessments are being developed to judge compentency in the arts and meet the state rule that students demonstrate mastery in the visual or performance art of their choice.
Mrs. Knoy,
You did a fabulous job of questioning the guests on this new program.
The other day I spoke to a NH 5th grade teacher who said she applied to grad school but didn't know how to multiply/divide fractions. She graduated college but lacked basic math skills.
My employees must hand-write a letter of intent for a promotion. I'm astounded at some of the spelling and grammar errors from high school grads.
The NECAP science scores were recently released and from what I read in an article, about half ot the students failed the test.
Moving away from "content" should frighten every parent in one of these schools.
Outcome Based Ed (new name Competency Based Ed) isn't anything new. It's been tried and tested in other districts only to have failed students. Will children learn? I suppose something is better than nothing.
Our students are about two years behind the highest performing countries in the world in math and science. The first question to Governor Lynch should be, is this what the Asian countries who finish FIRST in the world do in their classrooms? I'm sure the answer will be NO.
Your callers were wise and caught some of the problems.
Diane Ravitch recently wrote an article in the Boston Globe titled: Critical Thinking? You Need Knowledge http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/0...
She talks about the failures of Outcome Based Ed as it is repackaged as Competency Based Ed.
"From the “Life Adjustment Movement’’ of the 1950s to “Outcome-Based Education’’ in the 1980s, one “innovation’’ after another devalued academic subject matter while making schooling relevant, hands-on, and attuned to the real interests and needs of young people."
These gentlemen should research the failures of Outcome Based Ed under the many different names. (Mastery Learning under Bloom in Chicago, OBE failures..different names same philosophy)
Parents would be wise to read from Ms. Ravitch and the countless other people who understand the damage caused to children when you move away from teaching content, into fuzzy stuff.
Snake Oil? You bet!
http://www.commoncore.org/p21.php
If they just stopped spending HALF the money they do on these outsiders who call themselves 'experts' (like Russell Quaglia and his 'surveys' -- what a scam! Not to mention this man had the audacity to speak to a group of teachers and call Republicans 'a**holes') and put that money into a solid, non-political curriculum that does not have 'world citizenship' as it's foremost goal, we would be more successful.
It's time for the education system to be completely reworked- what a FABULOUS way to do this! Why do we keep students locked up inside a building for 18 years in order to "learn". REAL learning occurs in the outside world: allow them to learn Spanish while visiting Mexico or doing an internship with native speakers. Allow them to learn Shakespeare by attending plays and workshops. We are so tied to the idea that learning can only happen in rows in a classroom. It's a new world, time for a new education system. Make schools a hub for social activity and self-directed learning, not a place for spoon feeding and babysitting.
I think this "sounds" wonderful, but I am having trouble buying into this whole program. Students do take field trips and they do plenty of activities, to the point where I wonder sometimes if it's too much and not enough actual learning is taking place. My kids come home from field trips. They had a great time, but what did they actually retain? They seem to retain information when they are required to read it, or taught it, sometimes more than once.
One of the callers mentioned the teachers would be facilitators. HUH? This is supposed to be a good idea? I am not paying a teacher to facilitate, I'm paying them to TEACH!
Our kids are graduating without basic skills in grammar, math, and science. Why is NO one paying attention to that? Instead the NH Dept of Ed wants to focus on every other skill imaginable. More fluff with no substance.
I suspect we'll pay the price for this program in about 5-10 years when they figure out it didn't work.
Fred Bramante and John Lyons are dangerous people.
They are ruining NH with all these 'progressive' dumbed down educational schemes.
WAKE UP PEOPLE, your tax dollars are being used for these 'fads' and your kids being brainwashed with things like IB.
Just look how bad that new high school in Bedford is... parents are yanking their kids out in droves!
WAKE UP PEOPLE.
FIRE JOHN AND FRED!
I'm a Litchfield parent. I read through the Litchfield site and the links that parents posted. I'm grateful that parents are looking closely at this program but I don't want my kids to be the guinea pigs in another failed program.
I've heard too many Administrators in my lifetime, tell us how great things will be if I just give them more money and trust their newest program.
Teach the kids basic math/english/science/reading! Our kids are having trouble passing basic standardized tests and now they want them to focus on Self-Management, ability to work with others, and so on. They want to see kids learn in new and different ways. "Self-directed". Have these gentlemen been around teenagers? They aren't always the most motivated people. They need structure, they need discipline, they need someone to TEACH THEM. This does not sound like a well thought out and structured program at all from everything I've read at the Litchfield site. AS one parent asked, where are the comprehensive studies this works?
If private schools can graduate students who can succeed in college and beyond, why can't public schools do the same with twice the budget? Private schools have taken students in the inner cities and have been successful. Why is it, the public schools has to embrace every fad just to realize you need to teach basic traditional academics!?
Are parents truly "yanking their kids out in droves"...? Do you have data on this...?
Let's see, my kids are at Trinity, and last year several students from Bedford transferred over. I would suggest checking how many are attending Trinity and BG! Plenty.
Last year we had one student come to Trinity, mid year, because her mom walked into Bedford High to pick up her daughter during the day and refused to take her back the next day. Something about kids roaming around, no discipline and choas. It's well known the high school was out of control. Not sure if that's changed this year.
To the one gentleman who said they surveyed kids and they were "board" ...what do you expect kids to say? Do you have teenagers? My kids don't want to eat fruits and veggies, should we listen to them?
I'll take a traditional education anyday compared to an experiment gone amok!
Not only am I a 35-year teacher, but I am a reporter and this is my area of expertise. I have interviewed parents who say they have to 'reprogram' their children from the political indoctrination that is going on, as well as re-teach them the basics (basics has become a dirty word in schools today) and finally, end up sending to the private schools because yes, there is big trouble in Bedford. They let their principal George Edwards go. He was the same one who wanted to bring the 'fad' IB into the Bow schools. Bedford is now a clone of Bow and just ask the police about the troubles (drugs, sex, etc) at the taj mahal that drove many people out of their homes.
Works for me!! Not having to pay the teachers is a great idea. Can you take the overpaid Administrators with you? Let's shut down all of the failing public schools and give the money back to parents and let them decide.
It's absurd that the Lynch Dept of Ed wants to again, mandate how to teach kids. Isn't that what I pay the administration and teachers to do?
You said:
"It's time for the education system to be completely reworked- what a FABULOUS way to do this! Why do we keep students locked up inside a building for 18 years in order to "learn". REAL learning occurs in the outside world: allow them to learn Spanish while visiting Mexico or doing an internship with native speakers. Allow them to learn Shakespeare by attending plays and workshops."
This is fine as a supplement but should not be the main focus. There has to be a BASE of core skills and knowledge which somehow seems to be passed over these days.
"We are so tied to the idea that learning can only happen in rows in a classroom. It's a new world, time for a new education system. Make schools a hub for social activity and self-directed learning, not a place for spoon feeding and babysitting."
Social activity is the problem. Whose idea of social shall we promote? the UN's UDHR or the US Constitution and Bill of Rights? Self-directed? Doesn't work, believe me I know firsthand. This is nothing but indulgent foolery. Spoon feeding? I think not... if I take a class to learn everything I can about a subject I want it TAUGHT, not the teacher standing by while I 'experiment' and attempt to learn it from those around me.
Unfortunately we hear from only the politicians (Fred) and the Administrators but not the teachers, parents and the students. A NATIONAL curriculum? We the people should do everything in our power to make sure that doesn't happen. Our administrators need a lesson in the Constitution and separation of powers. NECAP data reliable and valid? Do students have any skin in the game? The Telegraph recently reported about the Kelly Services Temps with minimum of Associates degree mass producing scores as the Dover company contracted by the state outsources the writing scoring. Would it have made more sense to pilot Fred's dream in a few schools rather than the whole state?????
I applaud the concept that teachers, textbooks, and the other conventional equipment of academia are not the only conduits of learning and knowledge. Mastering content in the ways todays guests listed would surely be more meaningful and engaging for some (most?) students than a traditional classroom experience.
Several things about the conversation alarmed me, though. The constant refrain of "I don't care how they get there" made me wonder about the guests' commitment to the integrity, rigor, and validity of the process each student follows.
This is compounded by the concern that more than one caller (and the host) brought up: how does an instructor (or "facilitator") monitor, advise, correct, and otherwise guarantee that twenty or more students master these competencies when each student has the ability to follow a unique path. Superintendent Brennan's response that technology would allow them to "track these things" was absurd. Accounting is the least of teacher's problems here. How will they have time to meaningfully advise these students and assess their progress?
Finally, Laura asked if more kids might be held back in this system. The answer was an emphatic "No." Let's be honest, the problem in our current system is not that too many kids are held back, it's exactly the opposite. The pressure on teachers (from parents, from administrators, from the kids themselves, and from their colleagues too) to pass kids through to the next level is tremendous. Will that pressure diminish under this system? Will this system encourage more accountability for students, parents, and teachers, or will it encourage individual (and creative) definitions of the noun "mastery" in the same way it encourages unique definitions of the verb "master"?
As I said, at it's core, I support the idea that this approach could be immensely beneficial for _some_ students under some circumstances. Realistically, though, is it plausible to implement such a radical philosophical, logistical, and pedagogical change without making equally radical changes to class sizes, faculty and administrative training? This is an experiment whose intriguing results in the rarefied atmosphere of a laboratory probably cannot be duplicated in the underfunded, undertrained, over-managed and overly-politicized atmosphere of a New Hampshire public school system.
The truly progressive nature of this vision needs to be tempered with reality. Competency based education can work. Most importantly, a process (founded in educational research) needs to be established; people need leadership for this change to be effective. A huge problem with implementing this is that so many different perspectives on what this actually means exist.
Students still need instruction. They need knowledge and skills imparted to them by skilled teachers who know how to ensure learning is occurring. Content is extremely important. With the correct process, it is feasible to create Competency Areas for each class that address the GLEs and GSEs.
These Competency Areas can be used to categorize assessments and focus remediation. For this to work effectively however, there needs to be an agreement on the process. If everyone fights a separate battle, establishes their own system and methods to assess competencies, the potential effectiveness will diminish.
With the correct process, one that works in practice for teachers, students, parents, colleges, and the community, Competencies can work and become a powerful way to assess student learning.
I wonder if those who support Competency Based Ed. Took the time to read from the Litchfield Board. You will note with this comes a Constructivist approach in the classroom as described by the teacher who is promoting it. What you will then read is, how it works, or rather does NOT work in practice. You will also read from actual studies that show this does not work. It puts the students further behind, creates frustrated and angry students. This can work for SOME students, and yes students will learn something,but clearly the college prep private schools are turning out college ready students without the money the public schools waste, and without all of the fads and gimmicks. Who will be responsible for this when it fails ? Gov. Lynch?? He's not even being held accountable for the "F" rated math and science standards his Dept of Ed set for NH students! (per Fordham Institute)
Scott,
Well said! I hope someone is listening!!!!!
Didn't have a chance to listen to the program until last night. I realize at 61 I'm just an old coot, and contrarian, however....
This bit about making learning fun has been going on since I was in high school in the '60's. The dirty little secret is that sometimes learning isn't fun, it can be boring and repetitious, but has to be done.
If a student is allowed to focus on the things in a discipline that interest him, he may choose to pass over some of the nasty little basics in order to get at the fun stuff. The student may end up knowing a lot about somethihg, but very little about the basic principles of the discipline and the context to support whatever it is that interests him.
While I am all for making education as interesting as possible, the student has to learn to cope with the difficulties and frustrations inherent in the process, and deal with them with as much good grace as possible on the way to the "fun" stuff.
The educational theory discussed on the program strikes me as being able to produce a generation of self-absorbed specialists with no foundation and no context.
Thanks,
ChipB
Manchester NH
Chip B just owned Fred Bramante, a self-described 'expert' who really knows little about the process of teaching and learning.
Chip hit the nail on the head about education... and the sooner we stop pandering to the little spoiled brats the better off they will be and the more we will have done for them.
Sometimes we just need to give authority back to the teacher, enforce discipline and tell the students it's not always fun.
What surprises me in all the discussion about education -- including this one -- are the voices given to speak about it. There seem to be plenty of experts on education; plenty of individuals who have developed programs glutted with objectives, guidelines, and mandates, who sit on boards and look over statistics and test scores and try to figure out just what's working and what isn't -- and yet, where are the students? Aren't there any students who might have anything intelligent to say about education?
I am a senior in high school. I spend seven hours of the day, five days of the week in a school building, and just as anyone who works a full-time job, I like to think that I know something about the place I work--including the areas where it decidedly needs improvement. And frankly, I've come to think that the most deficient area of my education is the way I am regarded, because, as a student, who am I against the clean information of test scores, the straight mandates for "progress," and the vague and strangely empowered notion of "success"? I understand that the state is hamstrung in areas -- "No Child Left Behind" and federal grants, anyone? -- but doesn't the proven inadequacy of this system give chance for a reexamination of methods as well as an expansion of forum? Students can speak about their education, and sustaining their silence may be part of the reason that they are performing so "poorly" in the first place.
(As an aside, I have an explanation for the seemingly inexcusable test scores on last year's Science NECAP. It's an issue of simple arithmetic. Students can only take three full-year science courses by junior year, when NECAP testing is instituted. The test, though, contained four years of science: Earth Science, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics. That students with three years of high school are expected to have mastered four (non-requisite) full-year science courses, is a concept beyond my understanding and math skills.)